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Post by johnbond on Jan 16, 2014 22:28:07 GMT
Troy 
Troy can you help with the following: 8.1.2 Obscuring Terrain: If a LOS line passes through Obscuring Terrain the attack must add +1 for every inch that the LOS is traced through to the To-Hit for Ordnance or the To-Kill Roll for Infantry Combat. For anything less than one inch, the minimum terrain modifier is +1. In order to trace an LOS over Obscuring terrain, a unit must be ½ level higher but the target would still receive the minimum terrain modifier of +1. Example 1: Cromwell conducting a combat impulse would add +1 To-Hit (Terrain mod for target in wheat field) If the Panzer IV was conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would it add To-Hit ? Example 2: Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ? Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ? Example 3: Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
Example 4: Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
thanks John.
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Post by Ritterkrieg on Jan 17, 2014 13:25:06 GMT
Thanks for the question John,
Example 1:
If the Panzer IV was conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would it add To-Hit ?
A. +1
Example 2:
Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A. +2
Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A +2
Example 3:
Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A. +3
Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A.+3
Example 4:
Cromwell conducting a combat impulse against the Panzer IV what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A. +2
Panzer IV conducting a combat impulse against the Cromwell what Terrain mod would be added To-Hit ?
A. +2
Troy
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Post by johnbond on Jan 18, 2014 1:20:53 GMT
Hi Troy
Thanks for answering the questions can you help with the following:
9.0 TERRAIN RULES:
……Units benefit from being in terrain in the form of a modifier to the To-Hit rolls for Ordnance or the To-Kill rolls Infantry Combat.
Units in terrain, do benefit when targeted during Combat Impulse against them but I was wondering if units in terrain (classed as Obscured) should have a better Terrain modifier than those in open terrain when they conduct Combat Impulse against a target in Open Terrain.
The examples I have put forward above show that both the Cromwell in (Open Terrain) and the Panzer IV in (Obscured Terrain – Crop field) when conducting a Combat Impulse against each other add the same Obscured modifier To-Hit.
I think the unit in cover should have an advantage with a better/no modifier when conducting a Combat Impulse against a target in the open.
This issue was brought up during a game we have last week.
Example 3:
Obscured Terrain modifier works well here as neither unit is located within the Obscured Terrain.
Example 4:
Obscured Terrain modifier works well for Dispersed smoke.
Would it be better for the unit located in Obscured Terrain to benefit from this modifier if targeted during a combat Impulse but also not be penalized by the same modifier when conducting a Combat Impulse when targeting a unit in Open Terrain?
Your thoughts Troy!
John
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Post by Ritterkrieg on Jan 18, 2014 18:39:01 GMT
Hello John,
Some great points!
One situation not covered in the above examples is when a vehicle - say the Panzer IV, is in Obscuring terrain within 1 inch of the edge. The modifier for the Cromwell To-Hit the Panzer is +1 (minimum modifier for obscuring terrain). While firing out, the Panzer IV suffers no modifier To-Hit the Cromwell in clear terrain.
This discussion is focused on level terrain. If there is a height difference between the Cromwell and Panzer, the rules cover the situation with the minimum modifier so that there is an advantage to being in Obscuring terrain that is enjoyed by the Panzer even if on lower terrain.
Obscuring terrain is an interesting concept. While a few feet of this terrain type is not sufficient to completely block LOS, if traced through enough of it, the target stands a good chance of escaping due to deflected fire or at the best, to be not seen at all. The accumulated +1 modifier ensures that eventually the target will be impossible to hit.
This holds true for Tank vs. Tank, Tank vs. Infantry, Infantry vs. Tank and Infantry vs. Infantry combat in higher/taller Obscuring terrain such as Orchards, Dispersed Smoke and tall Crops (sunflowers, corn etc). Both the target and the firing unit must trace LOS through the exact same distance of Obscuring terrain.
With low crops and Wheatfields (waist-height), we begin to see a problem. The Cromwell sees a Panzer as a smaller target as just the turret is visible but the Panzer sees the Cromwell completely; Infantry standing vs. Infantry standing would be the same situation; A tank in clear terrain may not see Infantry in waist-high low crops at all if they are not standing and the infantry (unless on the edge of the field) probably will not see the tank until they stand up (try it yourself!). When you are prone in a Wheatfield, it’s very hard to see things in the distance!
This is where the Obscuring terrain rule is weakest.
One fix may be to modify the rule as you have indicated for low Obscuring terrain types and change them to a simple terrain modifier of +1 (removing the Obscuring classification). This would give us a second Crop type – call it Low Crops – that is NOT obscuring. Crop Field would be changed (in name only) to Tall Crops.
Your thoughts?
Troy
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Post by Ritterkrieg on Jan 18, 2014 18:48:34 GMT
Such as this...
9.1.6 Low Crops: Terrain modifier +1. Level ½. Low Crop are waist-high or lower fields of Grain, Wheat, Vegetables, etc that provide limited cover.
9.1.7 Tall Crops: Obscures LOS / Terrain modifier +1 per inch / Level 1. Tall Crops are shoulder-high or higher Cornfields, Sunflowers, etc that provide limited cover.
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Post by johnbond on Jan 19, 2014 0:52:18 GMT
Yes that makes sense Troy I see your point about Obscuring Terrain, just the name Obscure would suggest there is no clear answer.
I think the distinction made between Low/Tall crops and the modifiers applied work better.
You certainly don't waste any time changing the Reference Chart and the rule book. 
One situation not covered in the above examples is when a vehicle - say the Panzer IV, is in Obscuring terrain within 1 inch of the edge. The modifier for the Cromwell To-Hit the Panzer is +1 (minimum modifier for obscuring terrain). While firing out, the Panzer IV suffers no modifier To-Hit the Cromwell in clear terrain.
Yes I see there is a advantage as long as the Panzer IV is within 1” of Obscuring terrain
3.2 COMBAT IMPULSE:
The attacking unit must be able to ‘see’ the target so a Line-of-sight (LOS) must be traced from the attacking unit’s base/vehicle centre to the target unit’s base/vehicle centre (see rule section 8.0)
8.1 LINE OF SIGHT (LOS):
LOS is a straight line traced from the centre of the attacking units’ base or vehicle to the centre of the target unit’s base or vehicle.
Just to confirm as long as the vehicle/units centre in Obscuring Terrain is within the parameters of the any inch measurement it will obtain the relevant Obscure terrain modifier.
thanks John
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Post by Ritterkrieg on Jan 20, 2014 3:37:10 GMT
Actually it's edge within 1 inch. All measurements for combat are taken from vehicle/base edge. Los is traced from Center.
Troy
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Post by johnbond on Jan 20, 2014 5:06:22 GMT
Thanks for the correction Troy I think I got a bit ahead of myself. I have corrected the diagram of the examples john |
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Post by Ritterkrieg on Jan 20, 2014 18:41:39 GMT
Perfect! Love the diagrams! Thank-you for the feedback on the rule!
Troy
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